Wrath of God and the Rapture Part 2

 

Wrath of God 2

Now keep in mind that I only proved last week that the rapture does not have to happen before the tribulation. We have proved last week about the wrath, that it is just after the tribulation. But all we know so far is that the rapture is before that event, based on I Thessalonians 5:9:

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (this word means “deliverance”) by our Lord Jesus Christ

But how much before the wrath for the rapture? I laid a strong hint that it was at the end of the 6^th seal, based on Revelation 6:12,13, 15-17:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth… ¹⁵ And the… great men… and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: ¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

But I’d like a second scripture, but not in this short paper. Read my three blogs on the subject; there you’ll find one, I believe.  You may ask, since the wrath is after the 6^th seal, we could ask, Is the rapture before the 5^th seal? No, the souls of the saved martyrs are still there, and not raptured. Is the rapture before the tribulation, everyone wants to know.

Well, we have a second proof that explicity shows the rapture is not before the tribulation. There is only one Scripture that points to that: II Thessalonians 2:1, 3-4:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (i.e., the real rapture)…³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There is no question that this speaks again of the tribulation, considering what it says about the “man of sin” and the word “revealed.”  Clearly the Antichrist. Further, it speaks of the rapture-- the word “coming” and “gathering together” are typical rapture words. But then it’s explicitly saying, rapture cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed. And when is he revealed? After at least 3-1/2 years of the tribulation. Here’s Daniel 9:27 again to remind you:

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one seven: and in the middle of the seven he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Remember, he’s not revealed until he desecrates the holy of holies in the restored Jewish temple—at the midpoint. That means we’re stuck in the tribulation until at least the 4^th seal of Revelation, or after 3-1/2+ years. Remember at the beginning of Revelation 6, when we suggested the first seal was deception? Well, the Antichrist arrives on a “white horse,” allegorically, and wearing a crown, which suggests the return of Jesus, but look what happens afterward—wars, famine, and death of Christian citizens. That’s in no way Jesus--that was an effort at deception. He uses that deception to consolidate his power, and is pretending to be a friend of the Jews while he is otherwise occupied, solidifying his political position, and subtly fomenting wars. But…he is revealed when he commits abomination (placing an idol of himself in the holy of holies, etc) and surrounds Jerusalem by his armies to kill as many of them as he can, so they are urged to “flee for their lives.” They (and we) have already suffered the “beginning of sorrows,” seals 1-3, with wars and its effects, famine and plagues. And the second half of the tribulation shows who he really is—a man of exceeding hatred. He begins hunting us down. Killing the Jews and us.

So, these verses definitively say that Christians (and Jews) will have to suffer tribulation and persecution and mass murder before we/they get raptured. So this is the time period when we are raptured before the wrath. It adds to the idea that it’s at the 6^th seal. So we’re hiding to avoid persecution and even being murdered for the Lord. Don’t think for a minute that this is only for the Jews to suffer. Christians and saved Jews are all the “seed” of Abraham. (Romans 3:28-30; 11:13-20), and when it says “elect,” that always includes Gentiles. .

These II Thess. verses are again proof positive that the pretribulation idea is wrong—and more to the point, it is heresy. I use such a strong word because of the effect that believing in this particular eschatological (future things) doctrine has on people when they find out it’s wrong. At least when the Antichrist begins his murderous rampage, they will be sure that they are in the tribulation—and haven’t been raptured yet. So they will be enormously disappointed in their pastors who teach it as truth, when it is a false doctrine. Their disappointment could very likely increase to apostasy, or falling away from the faith, also mentioned above as happening. (For you “once saved, always saved” Calvinists, this falling away from the faith is in my blog elsewhere). Since they are confused and don’t trust their religious leaders, they would be easy prey for deception. They might even seek “truth” in some form of witchcraft, like tarot cards, “talking” to the dead, following false prophets, etc. All leading them into Satan’s control. I’m saying this doctrine could lead more people to end their lives heading for Hell. Wouldn’t you be averse to a doctrine that has questionable Scriptural basis and such clear negative effects as this? Wouldn’t you want to study it deeply? Can you just say, “Well, I believe in “pan-rapture,” whatever it is, it’ll just “pan out” in the end. You can’t, on this important subject. But are you prepared rightly for the future? I mean, have you explained it to your spouse and children, so they can be prepared? Do you know it enough to be calm when you see wars, and the Antichrist strutting his stuff? Wouldn’t you even know when you saw the seven-year covenant at the beginning of the 7 years that you were taught wrong? How will you react in all this turbulence, knowing finally that God’s future is actually mapped out clearly in His Word?

When the pretribulationists use their favorite Scriptures, like I Corinthians 15 or I Thessalonians 4:16-17:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The problem is, this verse gives you no clue about WHEN this happens. So the pretribulationists say it’s before the tribulation; does the Bible say that? No, these verses could be anywhere in the chronology. So some people have picked “before the tribulation.” I can easily choose another time. You see what my problem is? II Thess. 2:1-4 clearly says that it will happen in the tribulation. That we will suffer the worst persecution ever; we may be asked if we want to give our life for our Lord. Are you ready for that? Get closer to your God a prepare your mind for that Now. As II Corinthians 13:5 says:

⁵ Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (i.e., reprobates means unsaved.)

It happens that 36% of people are under pastors which teach pre-tribulation, according to a recent Gallup survey. That’s a LOT of people who are primed for deception when that day comes. Study it NOW, not in the future, when you will have to choose between not buying food at the grocery. This is Heaven or Hell. Death or Hell.

Pretribulationists’ beliefs also depend on certain actions of “the restrainer.” He/he has been restraining evil, but in the End Times, he/He will be asked to stop. Obviously, as a result, the outpouring of evil will vastly increase, resulting in the tribulation.

Here is how they figure it: One of the powers of the Holy Spirit is to restrain evil. Through acting in us. So they believe that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, in us. But the restrainer will be asked to stop and leave. That conveniently leads to a pretrib conclusion that if the Holy Spirit leaves, we will leave too. And since the tribulation involves a gigantic increase in the outflow of evil—that strongly suggests he will have left by then; so we will leave before the tribulation too.

The only verses that pretribulationists are taking all this from is in II Thessalonians 2:6-7:

⁶ And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. ⁷ For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he/He who now restrains will do so until he/He is taken out of the way. ⁸ And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume…

First, the mention of capitalizing “He” (which suggests the Holy Spirit) instead of “he.” This is the translator’s and publisher’s choice, since Greek used all capital letters. So did God’s Word mean He or he—you can’t tell. It may be a person, or a Person.

Second, the restrainer is not named. Pretribulationists chose the Holy Spirit. Could they have done that to buttress their position that the rapture must happen before the tribulation? That’s what their doctrine is, but we don’t know if they made the right choice of the Holy Spirit, because we don’t know who is the restrainer. There are many other possibilities for the restrainer. One suggestion is Michael the archangel. We found him battling Satan in Revelation 12:7 last week. To his (and possibly help from other angels) degree of success, he restrains evil. If you think less of him as only one person, and couldn’t do the job, keep in mind that one angel killed 185,000 evil men in one night. The angels might be doing an outstanding job as restrainers now.

In Daniel 12, we see Michael as a watchdog, a protector, also a restrainer’s role: 

“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation…

This reference to ‘time of trouble” is a Jewish term that definitely points to the tribulation. But it doesn’t say that Michael is told to step off, or that he is he restrainer. If Michael is the restrainer in II Thess. 2:7, then God could ask him to leave (Why would He do that?—another subject; I do touch on it later). All this is saying, the restrainer could be Michael instead of the Spirit. If it was Michael, when he leaves, we could still be here. So the Spirit would still be around in us, and able to help us and spread the Gospel, and save more people.

Thirdly, pretribulationalists’ timing of the restrainer’s leave-taking is off; see Rev. 12:8. The verse says something restrains, is taken out of the way, “and then” the lawless one will be revealed. So we conclude that if you are a pretribulationist, the restrainer (Holy Spirit) is not going away—or, we are not going away—until the lawless one is revealed—but this starts 3-1/2 years after the tribulation starts, as we have seen. So the Holy Spirit restrainer doesn’t necessarily pull us out from the tribulation, does He?

Fourthly, pretribulationists believe that people will be saved during the tribulation, right? Scripture evidences that—see Revelation 7:9ff last week. But if the Holy Spirit is removed before the tribulation, how will anyone during the Tribulation be saved? As mostly Calvinists, you have to believe that the Holy Spirit must move in people before they can search for God. But if there is no preaching the Gospel, no one to give testimony, how is anyone saved?

As my personal comment, I must say, I am offended by the effect this doctrine has, since they really want to “take off” before things get bad—and leave our relatives and friends behind, totally lost, and having no clues about what happens next, believing some wild story perhaps about UFOs kidnaping people. They desperately need, more than ever, our help in guiding them away from fear, together with prayers. We could convert many. But the idea that we would take off at that most pressing time? To me, we would be AWOL. It would be an abandonment of what we could do to help. Believing this would mean we are simply comforting ourselves that we expect to avoid suffering, but our friends and relatives—oh, well. This would be callous.

Another point: Pretribulationists ask, Why is the “church” not mentioned in Revelation after John (a member of the church) is mentioned in chapter 4? Isn’t it because they’ve been raptured out of it? My answer: First, a definition: The Greek word for church is ekklesia. It means “assembly” or “gathering of called-out ones,” referring to a group of saved people. Not buildings.

My detail is (I hope you remember these we covered before):

1.   In Revelation Chapter 7, we read of the great multitude in Heaven who will be killed in the tribulation. They were church, they were called-out ones; see also the word “elect” used for God’s chosen ones, referring again to His church.

2.   In Chapter 12, we read how the church will experience the tribulation, which is described as the war that the dragon (Satan) will wage against those who hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

3.    The church is also mentioned in the verses found in Chapters 6, which describe how God’s people will be killed in the tribulation just as the Martyrs in heaven were also killed.

4.   In Chapter 15:1-2 we read about those slain who will be victorious over the Beast, the Antichrist.

I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. And I saw… those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. Note: those who are “victorious” are those who maintain their testimony even to the point of death (Rev. 12:11), speaking again of the church.

5.   The church is mentioned explicitly (vs. implied in 1-4) in Revelation 22:16:

 

¹⁶ I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

6.   I think the reason the word “church” is not explicit in the tribulation is because of the great apostasy; only a remnant of churches and denominations remain. They were in hiding, so they didn’t ”have services.” They didn’t act like churches do today, as we think of the word—so it’s better to not use the word.

One more point—"keep thee” in Rev. 3:10. Normal translation:

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Pretribulationists believe that God will keep us out of the ”hour of temptation,” the being ”tried”—by escaping at the rapture. But…

The Base Greek word for keep is “tereo,” which means ”watch over” or “preserve” or “reserve.” (From W.E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary, a reputed work.) No suggestion of it as “leave” or “escape.” Defining it as a rapture is a mistake. Protection can come without moving out of the disaster area, but protecting us through it. A better translation is the NLT for Rev. 3:10:

Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.

Thus we’re here during the tribulation, and many are protected. This still does not mean no one is killed. I’m thinking of why God wouldn’t perform a miracle of raising us from the dead right after our martyrdom over and over. It could be that if only Christians were raised up, there would be again people who pretend to love Jesus, but only to be raised up—and save their hide. God would want everyone to show whether they are truly loyal to Him, or--faking it. He hopes that when some see how sinful they are that they’ve been faking Christianity, and are thinking only of themselves, they will repent and realize that heaven and hell are real, and they truly cling to Him. But that’s not my main point here. In any event, with the proper definition of the word, another pretribulationist effort to try to escape by rapture is wrong.

One last thing: Imminence. Pretribulationists have this doctrine of imminence, which means that the rapture has no prophetic signs beforehand. It could happen tomorrow. They say that if we all think about this, we will live a more meaningful life. We will all be on better behavior too; we wouldn’t want Jesus to come while we are thinking or doing something sinful, against His commands. Also, if we were looking intently for certain signs, we would unnecessarily focus on that, and we would be anxiety-ridden.

My answer to that is, first, imminence is destroyed, no question. We look for the covenant of Daniel 9:27, and we can then expect war and famine. So that’s a guideline on what to do—gather extra food or move to a place that we can farm, and “off the grid.” It needs to be away from the wartime nations. When we see the Antichrist reveal himself, we know what to do: Get ready to give our life for the Lord, preach to our friends—or flee to a place that’s isolated from the Antichrist, like Petra (near Israel). Sounds wild, but I suspect there will be lots of Christian communities there.

God never leaves His people in ignorance. He gives many signs about the future in the Bible, so we can make an informed choice and count the cost of following Him (Amos 3:7). He gives those signs to His prophets—so it’s too bad for those cessationists who don’t believe in special signs anymore and won’t listen when they will do them. Joel 2:11b, 28, and 31 are about the last days and predict a revival of these signs that pastors love to dismiss:

^11…  the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?... I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions…³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Revelation is interesting in that it makes this promise in 1:3 that no other book does:

Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein…

Sure, we are blessed if we read Any book of His Word, but none of them say this in a promise. Let’s take advantage of it; read Revelation intently a dozen or so times, taking notes. I promise it will start to clear up some confusion. (PS: ask for the Holy Spirit to help, not commentarians. They usually have a prejudiced leaning on a critical verse that’s pushed by a denomination or a publishing house. God bless you as you work toward “being a Berean.” I hope I have helped.

 

 

Is God's Wrath in the Tribulation?

This is a Scriptural study of some of the main arguments of pre-tribulationists.

For background, pre-tribulationists believe that all the true Christians will be raptured (caught up to be with the Lord) just before (pre-) the 7-year tribulation. They believe that the tribulation is God’s wrath, and since Scripture says we won’t suffer God’s wrath, therefore we must be raptured before the tribulation. So let’s start by defining terms.

The 7-year tribulation can be defined by looking at Daniel 9:27 (from the NIV, though I normally use the King James edition):

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Since I cannot cover everything in this small summary, let me say this: The “he” in the first sentence is the Antichrist. He confirms a covenant with “many,” which is Israel (and possibly others), to grant her safety, and to allow her to once again carry on her ancient sacrifices. The “seven,” is seen as seven years; no way does this happen in a week. The last sentence above has the word abominations, which is tied in to what Jesus said in Matthew 24 just below—please read it. Matthew, as you can see, says these actions tie in to tribulation. So it’s reasonable to say that Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 tie in to the same subject, the tribulation, and results in the greatest persecution the world has seen, even greater than the holocaust. Now here is part of Matthew 24:

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place…¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains... ²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: ²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Finally, the word “elect” (all God’s chosen people) suggests these are not Jews-only prophecies—they also combine us Gentiles, who have the chance to have eternal life too. I will be assuming so throughout this paper; so this paper is relevant to everybody.

Now let me admit that my putting the word Antichrist and the Jews in Daniel are speculative, but reading the verse, plugging in those words, certainly fits the current situation, doesn’t it? But saying that, asserts we are in the Last Days, which is speculative too. But none of those speculations has anything to do with my problems with the doctrines of the pre-tribulationists.

First, they believe that when the Scripture uses the term “wrath of God,” they assume the tribulation is the wrath of God. But the wrath of God is not mentioned in either of those verses above, even though both were on the subject of tribulation. But the pre-tribulationists argue that it is anyhow. And, they argue, since God wouldn’t subject us to His wrath, we must be raptured BEFORE the Tribulation—which is why they are “pre-tribulationists.”  That way we escape all that wrath. But I maintain the tribulation is not the wrath of God. In fact, it is the wrath of Satan. The wrath of God comes later, as I’ll show. Therefore we might not be raptured “pre” tribulation. Here’s what I want to prove:

Many Jews and true Christians in the tribulation will be killed by the Antichrist. The focus is on him, and his hatred of us. That doesn’t sound like the wrath of God.

And God’s vengeance (or the wrath of God) has not started in the entire tribulation.

Tribulation is even called the wrath of Satan.

Together, this would defeat the main argument by pretribulationists for insisting the “rapture has to be before the tribulation.”

My proof is based on the fact that the first nine chapters of Revelation are chronological. For our brief study, we need to skip ahead to Revelation 6, where Jesus is opening the scrolls. The scrolls reveal the same cycle of events as Jesus says in Matthew 24, and since Matthew 24 is on the tribulation (see above), we have to consider that Revelation 6 is also the tribulation. For proof that they are the same point in time, we begin with Revelation 6:2-6:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (This is DECEPTION—see below). ³ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, Come and see. ⁴ And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. (WAR) ⁵ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. ⁶ And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (FAMINE).

Deception, followed by war, and famine. Now here is the same chronology in Matthew 24:4, 6-7,15-16:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you...⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in diverse places...¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place…¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains…

As you can see that so far, their events follow the same path. This portion (seals 1-3 in Revelation) is called the “beginning of sorrows” by Jesus in Matt. 24:8. This is just before Antichrist reveals himself as a hater of Jews and Christians in the middle of the 7 years (See Daniel 9:27), and attacks Jews in Jerusalem by performing the abomination (that would be insolence against Jewish religion, such as sacrificing a pig in the holy of holies), and begins to kill them. So they are told to flee. (Remember, his covenant made him their friend. But his turnabout made them see who he really was—a Jew-hater. He revealed himself.)

Back to Rev. 6:7-11:

⁷ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, Come and see. ⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: ¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

At the fourth seal, note the emphasis on death—it says that ¼ of the people shall die—God help us. It has to be a nuclear assault. In the fifth seal, note the souls slain for the word of God (both true Christians and converted Jews, if you look up the meaning of the terms “fellow servants” and “brethren”). They are asking, How long before You judge and avenge our enemies? To me, vengeance and judgment represent the wrath of God. In all these Scriptures on the tribulation, Daniel, Matthew and Revelation, Not One Time is the “wrath of God” mentioned—except in the fifth seal, when the souls are asking, basically, “when will it begin?” And His answer is, not yet—soon. Thus, the wrath of God hasn’t begun until after the fifth seal of the tribulation. This could well be in the sixth year of the 7-year tribulation—so it’s obviously not before the tribulation. That’s Proof #1.

Luke 21 has some added comments, talking about the same subject:

¹² … they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake…¹⁶ And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.¹⁷ And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

The subject of being betrayed by family is really dark. I suspect the Antichrist will pay a handsome reward for those who rat on their families as Christians or Jews. This has happened in the Dark Ages. I suspect the economy is in dire straits, and jobs and money are hard to get. “Death and Hell” says that people will possibly be asked, perhaps at the point of a gun, “Do you worship the Antichrist?” If you answer “No, I worship the real God,” you will experience Death at the hand of the Antichrist. But you will also experience an eternity in heaven with Jesus, for your love of Him is greater than your love of life in this world.  If you answer “yes,” you will keep your life—for a while—but you will also experience Hell. So your choice is Death or Hell. An angel will be announcing the choice; these are the only two choices in Revelation 14:9-11:

⁹ And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, ¹⁰ The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: ¹¹ And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Truly a frightening description of Hell, and how severe is God’s judgment.

Further proof of the multitudes which shall die in the tribulation are in Revelation 7:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes... ¹⁰ And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God… ¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? ¹⁴ … And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That means that that great multitude of those children of His had been murdered; supposedly that’s what happened in God’s Wrath (?). I ask you, you’re saying the wrath of God will be this murder of Christians? This made no sense. But there is an alternative: Scripture proves, I believe, that it’s not God’s wrath, it’s Satan’s wrath. Here we go to prove this:

In Rev. 12:7:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels…

To explain: In II Corinthians 12:2, Paul alludes to a person caught up in the third heaven. So, maybe the first heaven is what we can visibly see in the universe; the second heaven is where God’s angels fight against the fallen angels under Satan’s command; and the third heaven is where God and His throne are.

Further verses in Revelation 12:

⁸ And he (Satan) prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. ⁹ And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him…¹² Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time…

Note the phrase that he “deceiveth the whole world.” No one has ever deceived the whole world. But the Antichrist can in the tribulation, with communication technology. So this is during the future, when he also will use technology for the mark of the beast (see Rev. 14:9 above), providing him a way to control each and everyone’s banking; and it will be useful for speaking his deceptive words to the whole world. Note that he has “great wrath.” And note that he knows he has a “short time”—only seven years, I believe that’s saying.

Yet more in Rev 12:13,17:

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child…. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The “woman” is Israel. Many times in the Old Testament, God refers to His taking her as bride, and how she turned to worshiping other gods, and “played the harlot.” The dragon is Satan. The male Child is Jesus Christ. Note that Satan and his thousands of fallen angels were kicked out of heaven in vv. 9, 12, and 13. So his new base for evil activity is on earth—so every one of his powers will be intensified during the tribulation. Especially note what he felt in v.17, the word “wroth,” which was immediately followed by the intense persecution of Christians and converted Jews. That’s twice that a version of “wrath” is used for Satan in the tribulation, vs none for God’s use of wrath. It is reasonable to conclude this is Satan’s wrath during tribulation, not God’s wrath. Proof #2a

So here is my question for the pretribulationists: Is this God’s wrath, since it is Not Ever mentioned in tribulation verses, and since God’s children are murdered and persecuted by Satan, who is doing whatever he wants. So does that sound like God’s wrath? Is “God’s wrath” just allowing chaos, letting Satan strut his stuff, killing God’s children and Jews right and left? Do you see God’s vengeance upon them that kill His children—at all?

Now focus on Rev. 12:12, 15-17, for a single, convincing proof of when is the wrath of God:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair...¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: ¹⁷FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME (“has come” means ready to begin); and who shall be able to stand?

This places the wrath of God definitely after the 6^th seal. That’s nearly the End of the 7-year tribulation. Proof #2b.

In the Tribulation, the focus is on the activities of the Antichrist. But in the wrath of God, it’s the reverse; all men shall see and be humbled by His power and destruction. This is proved in Isaiah 2. It even mentions again the “holes of the rocks” that prophesies how the ungodly want to hide when Christ comes (see Rev. 12:15 above, under events in the sixth seal)

Isaiah 2:2, 11b-12, 19 ² And it shall come to pass in the last days … the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day ¹² For the Day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low…¹⁹ And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Let me give an example of God’s wrath in Revelation 8 so you can see the flavor:

8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour… ⁴ And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. ⁵ And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. ⁶ And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. ⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I don’t read anywhere in these verses about the Antichrist. All I see is God’s power, and His wrath and vengeance on the people and the earth. I do assume that the Christians and saved Jews were not there.

So the wrath of God is after the 6^th seal, in Revelation 6 (the great day of His wrath “has come”) and begins on the 7^th seal in Ch 8, where God begins pouring out His wrath.

We have proved that the main argument of pretribulationists, that it must be before tribulation, “God’s wrath,” is gone.

Now let’s focus on the rapture. When is it, now that we’ve blown away the pretribulation assumption about the wrath? I Thessalonians 5:9 says the rapture must happen before the wrath of God. I have proved that God’s wrath is later, meaning we don’t have to rapture before the tribulation. But all the verse says is the rapture is before the wrath. We’ve proved our point on the timing of the wrath, but everyone wants to know, when is the rapture? It’s before the wrath, but how much before? Is it possible that we could still avoid all the tribulation?

See next week for final proof on that.